A Rational Fear

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A real privilege to have this kind of line up —

The Dollop’s Dave Anthony.

The Bichuation Room’s Francesca Fiorentini

and former White House Director of CommunicationAnthony Scaramucci.

And Lewis Hobba and Dan Ilic.

We rip into this week's presidential debate and talk with former White House Director of Communication Anthony Scaramucci on how and why Republicans are campaigning to get Donald Trump out of office.

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Dan Ilic 0:00

Good morning, Louis.

Lewis Hobba 0:01

Morning Daniel. I so

Dan Ilic 0:02

early in the morning for us. We don't ever do this at this time in the morning, but it's for a special occasion only.

Lewis Hobba 0:07

Yeah, it was a debate that was worthy of this kind of early rise.

Dan Ilic 0:14

And let's quickly wrap up that Patreon supporters, Fiona Parmenter, Phil Willis, Lizette, Sal, kovitch, Zen thoria West, have all chipped in the Patreon this week. Also a big special mention to Jason smail, who's taken up our top level Patreon subscription. He's paying 100 bucks a month for irrational fears. So thank you. He's one of the top of the tech guys in Silicon Valley. We travelled once to a marathon in bend in Oregon, to watch one of our friends do a marathon.

Lewis Hobba 0:43

I was waiting for the for the end of that I'm like, wait, wait, wait, you did a marathon

Dan Ilic 0:48

to watch to watch someone do that or thought. This means we're up to 91% of covering on cost for the podcast or pretty much what Trump has paid in taxes in 2017. So jump onto patreon.com forward slash irrational fear to support the show. Another way to support irrational fear is to offset your carbon emissions from your car with go neutral for every $90 you could go neutral will buy 3.5 tonnes of carbon offsets, which is about a yearly emissions for a car and five bucks of that comes to us to go neutral. Click on the link in the show notes. I'm recording my end of irrational fear on gadigal land in the Euro nation. sovereignty was never ceded. We need a treaty. Let's start the show.

Unknown Speaker 1:24

A Russian mafia contains naughty words like bricks. Can bro.

Unknown Speaker 1:30

And come

Unknown Speaker 1:31

and section 40 a rational fear recommended listening by immature audience

Dan Ilic 1:37

tonight after 232 seasons 2020 will be the final season of America it'll be replaced with reruns of Germany before it got good. And after the first presidential debate, the phrase come to Australia began trending on Twitter, like till Americans find out that we have three Guantanamo Bay's and far right extremist proud boys respond to Trump's request to stand back and stand by by stepping forward and standing on desk to shout out Captain my captain. It's the first of October 2020 in America. It was fun while it lasted. This is irrational fear.

This is irrational fear. Thank you for joining us. I'm former Kentucky Attorney General Dan Ilic. Let's make our fee mungus for this week, if the world's got you down you can guarantee our first guest will get you down even further. He is one half of the American history podcast the dollar Dave Anthony. Thank you Dave. Is there something you can say something you could say to cheer up our listeners? No. And she's known for speaking dick jokes to power but you can see her each week in her show news broke you can hear each week on her podcast the Situation Room and you can smell her each week putting the bins out it's Francesca fiorentini.

Francesca Fiorentini 3:01

It is very true. Very true. I compost but I don't actually have a compost. So I just put it in the trash. And like someone who's just really trying to feel better about myself. You know, that's it, just so I'm gonna almost almost help the world.

Dan Ilic 3:20

That's what this podcast is all about. You're very much on Brad. And he's a man unaccustomed to being up this early. So work it is the host of Triple J. Dr. Louis harbour.

Lewis Hobba 3:29

Yeah, I don't consider this work. Dan, this is fun.

Dan Ilic 3:31

Good. Doesn't it doesn't count as work until I stopped paying you. Robert a little later on. We've got a very special interview with former White House press secretary turned anti Trump fundraiser Anthony Scaramucci. Yes, the Butch will be here he will be joining us. But first, we've got a new sponsor. It's a bit of a library. This one here we go. Get my library music. Going to the post office can be hard. There's always long lines white supremacists hanging out there to pre screen your mail and throw milk on you. And even if you do manage to post your mail in ballot who knows how long it's going to take to get to the correct precinct for counting. And those election folks are always making mistakes putting the wrong addresses on things. This election season, make your mail in voting easy with stamps.ru stamps that are you We'll send you out a book of stamps for free that look just like us postage and you can stick them all over your mail in ballot. They'll even send you the latest updated address labels to make sure that your ballot gets to the right place so that you know your vote will be counted by someone with Wagner on their breath. Head to stamps.ru today to get a free trial from now until November that stamps.ru use the offer code Biden wins to get a free ballot facts Shredder. Who else gives you a fax shredder? It faxes your ballot to an international number beginning with plus seven then transit. Mellon voting has never been more secure with stamps.ru. Well, I mean they do pay us so it's great to have their money. Okay. humungus let's talk about the debate. There have been so many moments over the last four years when Donald Trump has almost risen to meet the demands of his office. And I think we can all agree that during last night's presidential debate, Donald Trump finally became Fira. I say debate. But it was so confusing. I thought I'd tuned into the two old guys from the Muppets breaking up. To be honest, when you think about what's going on in America and the world right now, they really should have conducted the debate of resume that way. Not because of Coronavirus or anything like that. But chris wallace would have had access to a mute button. But we lay different people took different things from the debate like conservative coalition Trump supporters who and this is true, complained that Biden didn't answer any questions. I mean, they're not run. Dive, let's start with you. How you feeling about Biden, should he have answered More questions?

Dave Anthony 5:49

Oh, well, that's a tough one. There's a couple of things with Biden, first of all, it's hard to answer question when a man just keeps jabbering at you constantly. Like there's no way it's good. But also, Biden needs a lot of time to ramp into his questions, make some mistakes, correct course. stutters Dumbo, correct course. So he needs a really long, long runway, and then he gets to come up and then crash the plane and then taken off again. So it's hard for him just in general. But But he he did, I would I would give him a two out of 10.

Dan Ilic 6:25

Fred, how did you feel that the debate? I'm,

Unknown Speaker 6:29

I'm worse than I could have imagined, you know, and you don't like I'm sure the entire world wants to see someone fillet Donald Trump on the national international stage. But no one more than an American who has to live under this regime. Let's call it what it is. So it's like, it's just the biggest you get so sorry for me, you get so hard. Like you're just like, Oh, you're so ready to go. When you watch a debate. And then, you know, did I wish there were performance enhancing drugs? Because Biden could not bring it he couldn't get it? I mean, look, he's in his. It happens. You know, in your 70s I'm sure it's only natural, not judging. But it was it was really it's hard. It's always hard to watch whether it's Clinton who you know, was respectable, or Biden who tried to level with people but really couldn't. You know, as a comic, you're like, just get some zingers. Just get a couple zingers make fun of his $70,000

Unknown Speaker 7:32

expense on his hair. That's it.

Unknown Speaker 7:35

Yeah, he and also the, the makeup factor the fact that they don't like how could you? How could you sit there and know he spent 70,000 on his hair and not say what are you paying for your makeup? $5 like just hit the guy. It's so easy. It's so easy. He is a walking talking thing to mock. It would just be non stop with anybody who just had their mental mental acuteness together such

Lewis Hobba 7:58

a tough ask I I have no idea how you would prepare to debate Donald Trump because you can go low. But if you do once you get down to that sort of street fight, he's so much better. There's no one better at kicking people in the balls on the street than he is. You do have to try to like, be there. But just like he makes you fight your fight it is. It's like playing like kids sport like on the 12 soccer or something. Sometimes a really shit team will beat a really good team, just because the complete lack of organisation throws a good team off their game.

Unknown Speaker 8:32

Yeah, I would just say though, that there is a there is a kind of comedian and David Letterman is that type of comedian who in his autobiography described how they were the Funny Kids, and he was the guy who made fun of the Funny Kids. So you need that type of person who knows how to undermine everything he says, and just keep making fun of what he is and what he's doing. highlight what he's doing and and make it seem really stupid, as opposed to just those direct hits. You take what he's saying, and you throw it back at him.

Lewis Hobba 9:06

Let's dive up to Is he

Unknown Speaker 9:11

coming? No.

Lewis Hobba 9:13

no introduction. Made the president Dave Letterman

Dan Ilic 9:17

great. What we need is another white 70 year old guy

Unknown Speaker 9:21

in the room together, maybe they can do this job.

Dan Ilic 9:25

I'll form some sort of Voltron with the rector.

Unknown Speaker 9:31

I think Al Franken would have been the perfect sort of human being to run against him if he wasn't latch. You know, that's a drop. Like that type of that type of guy.

Dan Ilic 9:41

It didn't stop Trump did it?

Unknown Speaker 9:44

It didn't. It didn't. I mean, it's hard.

Dan Ilic 9:46

It's kind of trumpian logic to kind of say someone will do it better but I it during the entire debate. I just couldn't help but think what if Warren was up there, I really felt like she would have been an incredible attack dog and would have been on the front foot and would have smiled at him. And outpaced him every step of the way.

Unknown Speaker 10:03

Yeah, I think Bernie Sanders, same thing, but more on policy, which is not really what you need, you really do need sort of style, and you need to shut him up. And I definitely think you know, Warren in her attack, even on Bernie, which came out of left field, yeah, very dinero star Gary and in my opinion, I was like, you know, good, fine. Like she could have definitely handled that. The one thing that it said about Biden, God, if there is a silver lining, it's that he actually does Listen, like one He's, uh, he, you know, cognitively, he might be, you know, slightly a little bit less sharp than he should be. But his hearings great. And if that's any sign for how he might govern, hey, that's pretty good. If we can ever get over the other side, you know, like, he hears things, he hears people he can listen. And he had to do all that

Lewis Hobba 10:57

hearing through the pieces that he put in. That's really

Unknown Speaker 11:01

it's such a sad thing. This year, you're saying it's good that he can hear

Lewis Hobba 11:10

your bass here? It's the equivalent of kind of going like he's just recovering from a fall.

Dan Ilic 11:18

Was there a moment for either of you that really made the moment of the debate?

Unknown Speaker 11:22

Well, you know, I'm a big climate change guy. So watching the talk about climate change really made my head just kind of snap and explode. And I wanted to really jump into the TV at first slap Trump and then slap Biden, like it was really just a,

Dan Ilic 11:34

they both weren't very good on that at all. Like, I know, it goes both ways. There Biden in the same paragraph, said, Doug, well, the green New Deal, the green new deal will pay for itself. And then he backed it up saying, Oh, I don't back the green new deal at all he got, he got really flustered. He was like selling something, and then immediately discounting it in the same breath. It was pretty astounding. Emily Atkins from the hated newsletter, right? The climate change section was the only section that Trump didn't interrupt because he didn't know what to say, because he doesn't know shit. And nothing particularly more when they started talking about fuel economy standards as a way to make the environment better. And upon that question, Biden said, Why have you relaxed fuel economy standards that are going to create more pollution from cars and trucks? And then Trump went on this one minute read? He said, Well, I've got it in front of me, I'm just gonna write it out fine. Like, well, well, well, not really, because what's happening is the car is much less expensive, and it's much safer car and you talk it about a tiny difference. And then what would happen because of the cost of the car, you would have at least doubled and triple the number of cars purchased. We have the old slugs out there that are 1012 years old, if you did that the car would be safer, it will be much cheaper by 30 $500. Nothing about climate change or emissions. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 12:48

Was there for I feel like there wasn't even a full sentence in there. He but let me just say, though, that he This is truly the logic they're trying to spin not the Trump administration has rollback 100 environmental regulations, they want us to die as quickly as possible. They want to burn the planet as quickly as possible. But I will say, buried in one of their like Transit Authority, sort of summaries on why they were rolling back the emissions. They said, it's too late. Like that's almost a quote, essentially, why we're making all this money and the planets going to hell anyway. So it was like, he knows and that was the other thing is Biden not being able to come back and being like, you think this guy gives a shit whether you live or die like you want? This this man who laughed in the face of the wildfires?

Dan Ilic 13:36

Trump talking about how people in Europe live in forest houses. That was pretty exciting. There's so many city forces. Yeah, there's like everyone in everyone in Europe lives in fucking Fern Gully. That's what that's all I took away from that.

Unknown Speaker 13:51

I was a city I was like, I worked for city city.

Lewis Hobba 13:57

This was advertised like they're all blue.

Dan Ilic 14:01

And one of the things that often comes up after debates like this is people will journalists mainly on Twitter go wow. The only winner of tonight's debate a comedians. Dave, comedians, the winners of moments like this in American politics.

Unknown Speaker 14:14

No, no. What the fuck? Listen, the reason that they say that is because of Jay Leno. Jay Leno. He everything everything went to just being dumb. And he just and he had the dancing ido judges when when OJ Simpson was on trial, it was like there was no morality. He just did whatever it took to get a laugh. And so since then, everyone's been like the comedian is gonna love this. No, the comedians actually have like morals and understanding. And so they get actually comedians are actually generally terrified of fascism, where other comedians support it, but most of us were pretty as a group against fascism. So we're not actually really thrilled about a debate in which a guy just flat out comes out as a fascist. Not not great. Not Huge fan.

Unknown Speaker 15:00

He's so hack. I mean, this is the thing this is I Trump is hack himself. He's a bad drunk, open mic comedy doing racist, sexist material that only gets a laugh because people are astounded he's even doing it. So that's like the laugh is like the asshole laugh. And I'm tired so boring. You can feel an audience sigh when you start to bring up the president because you're like, Ah, you can feel it in the room because nobody wants to be reminded the guy is his own satire. So why, you know eijiro one about a you know, the the people believe that there is a mysterious figure named q shrouded in darkness that runs a sex cult underground and is trying to topple Donald Trump or like, Yeah, man, we're living in bribes. Like that's,

Lewis Hobba 15:50

that's right there. We came here for fun. Yeah, it is. It is genius, though. And I know this is not like a new point. But that that is the hard thing that to get over and get around, which is how to deal with someone who it is boring to bring up his constant failure.

Dan Ilic 16:08

Yeah, totally. And it's also difficult to be a comedian against someone who is genuinely quite funny. Like he is he makes him read a bit. Trying to hit funny with funny is so difficult with someone that's already undercutting the office themselves. It's so it's so strange.

Lewis Hobba 16:25

And it's just very hard to me like that guy's a white supremacist when he's like, Yes, I'm a white supremacist. I get it. When there's no shame. You need shame. If it like this, without shame, there's nothing to stick to. It's just the throwing shit at shame Teflon pan.

Unknown Speaker 16:42

But I still want to scrape the bottom of that pan though. Like I think there's more to go and I look I want him out in November or excuse me, by the end of you know, he won't leave but you know what I'm saying? I in an ideal world by January

Dan Ilic 16:55

in an ideal world after a long protracted Civil War sometime 2023 you know, it'd be great

Unknown Speaker 16:59

you know, when stuff smouldering you know, I'd like to be able, but before he goes, I really do want to see what else he'll do for by being baited into it. He drank water on camera because people baited him into it because they said he couldn't. I think he wears adult diapers and I want to bait him into like, will he and won't his audience and his base just cheer and elation when they see the jockey and they you know, like the scene and 16 candles or whatever. They're holding up the underwear. What

Unknown Speaker 17:32

I was saying yesterday is when they were coming out and saying Biden is wearing an earpiece, Biden should have said you can inspect me for an earpiece. If we can expect inspect Donald for diapers and then just left Italy and that would be the whole conversation and it would end.

Unknown Speaker 17:48

Europe they live that far cities they call forest cities. They maintain their forests, they manage their forests. It's a forest city.

Unknown Speaker 17:56

Your fear is rational.

Dan Ilic 17:58

Our interview guest on this week's podcast shot to fame for 11 days when he was White House press secretary before being unceremoniously fired by Trump making him one of the most memorable x cast members from the apprentice West Wing condition ever. By day he manages $9 billion funds by not he's raising money for the Lincoln project and anti Trump political action committee that's run by Republicans. Welcome to irrational fear Anthony Scaramucci. It's good to be here. Thank you guys for having me on. Oh, it's great. You know, we've we've got Francesca fiorentini. We got Dave Anthony and Lewis hubby here to go. Just before we go what's what's the most appropriate way to address us at Anthony Mr. Scaramucci, the mooch

Unknown Speaker 18:36

all three of those names are better than some of the other names that have been used. So you can go with any of those names still be fine. Yeah.

Lewis Hobba 18:43

What's your least favourite?

Unknown Speaker 18:46

Oh, this is typical Ozzie question right. So I have to use psyops on you now and say Scaramucci. Call me anything you want. It's all good. I just think it's ironic. That's like your Southern Southern Italians and southern Australians are very similar. So I think I'm picking it up. Yeah, both

Dan Ilic 19:05

are riddled with Coronavirus.

Unknown Speaker 19:07

I think it's funny. Anthony, you're on a podcast with someone who's got more of an Italian name than you do. Francesca fiorentini. So,

Unknown Speaker 19:15

I noticed that right away Francesca even have more syllables than me, because I have a little bit of syllable envy right now.

Unknown Speaker 19:23

Italian.

Dan Ilic 19:24

Let's talk a little bit about the Lincoln project merge. How does someone who worked at the White House end up campaigning against the man in the White House?

Unknown Speaker 19:31

Well, you know, I wrote a lot about it back in 2019. But the short answer is I've changed a lot. I think the at the end of the day, one of my liberal critics, I think it was on television, they said well, you know, he was talking about Mexicans and rapists and 2015. And so in 2019, you disavowed your support. Nothing about him changed and my response was, well, maybe he didn't change but I have changed it become more psychologically minded, I become more aware of the tribulations and the stress that he's putting on other people. I become more aware that the ends, frankly, do not justify the means this whole moral equivocation about policy and cognitive dissonance. And so the you know, the answer to the question is it got to a point where it became impossible to support them anymore and maintain your personal integrity.

Dan Ilic 20:27

You didn't know that when you went into the White House?

Unknown Speaker 20:30

That's a big question. No, see, but no, you're asking the same question that my liberal friends ask. And so this is the big that kind of dilemma. 63 million people did vote for him. So I think you have to pay close attention to Why? Because everybody has a different reason for voting for him. So my reasons were, I was a lifelong Republican, I was working for Jeb Bush, he dropped out of the race. There were two people running it was Secretary Clinton, or, or then Donald Trump. And I made the mistake of going with Donald Trump because I was overlooking. And again, I don't justify this only now you do is apologise for it, I made the mistake of overlooking some of his moral shortcomings and some of his verbal rhetoric up because I thought it was the better of two choices. So I have to own that mistake. You know, I'm not one of these guys, that's going to sit here and try to defend it. All I can do is apologise for it. And so when you say that, I didn't know that the answer is yes, I did know that. But you're down to two choices. Imagine all of us are on the publicly traded Board of a company. And you're hiring two people, and the philosophical things that you've been with your whole career. I'm a lifelong republican i my first vote was for ronald reagan in 1984. And so I went with, that's where you went wrong? And that was a mistake. What's that?

Unknown Speaker 21:50

I said, that's where you went wrong foot in the first place?

Unknown Speaker 21:53

Yeah, well, listen, I mean, you know, there's a lot wrong with the Republican Party. So there's no question about that. I think that the republican party now, whatever you thought of it under Ronald Reagan, it is a very last party under Donald Trump, it's become a full blown personality cold, as an example of that is we don't even have a party platform in the Republican Party. You can't even I can't even tell you what it stands for anymore, because the party platform is whatever Mr. Trump wants. That's our party platform. So Karen and Vlad Amelie wash their way. And if you if you love the United States, maybe you do, maybe you don't. But if you do love the United States, I can tell you, we're our most successful when we have two very strong parties that are vigorously but civilly debating with each other and advancing the ball for progress both for the global community and for the citizens of the United States. And we're not doing that right

Dan Ilic 22:41

now. So you now you're fundraising for the Lincoln project? How is that process going? And how are the Lincoln project going in general, what what's their plan heading into the next five weeks?

Unknown Speaker 22:52

Well, I was on last night, we did live streaming before the debate, we raised a tonne of money last night, we've been doing a lot of zoom calls and gatherings remotely. And it's been very successful, they've raised 10s of millions of dollars. And their plan basically, is to eviscerate this son of a bitch. And over the next five weeks, they're going to do that. And if you look at the if you look at the ads that came out after the debate last night, I think these are very successful is what I would say to my FET friends that are Democrats, you guys got to knuckle up, you got a hard knuckle up, you have to understand the adversary better. You know, the Vice President did a good job last night. But you know, as I said to some members of his campaign, he needed an extra slice of pizza and a little bit of a spray tan or sit in the hot sun a little bit. You know, he he he needs to look more vigorous in debate number two,

Dan Ilic 23:45

and that's a very Italian yield thing to say I get a spray tan.

Unknown Speaker 23:50

Something he needed something last night because he looked to pay I was telling you the truth. He looked too pale and it looks like he's lost too much weight. You know? And you know, Francesca has probably the same mom as me. My mom has like optical nerve damage. She thinks everybody's thin, you know, you could show up 200 pounds overweight. She's like have a canola, you know, but but in the Vice President's case, he needs to be optically way more vigorous than he was last night. You know, and the good news is, you know, Donald Trump showed up the first thing I thought of when Trump showed up, he looked like the 1981 orange Corvette that I was trying to buy in high school, where unfortunately couldn't come up with enough money to buy it. That was the first thing I looked at. I mean, he literally had almost like an auto spray paint on his face. So he was optically also very disturbing.

Unknown Speaker 24:37

What's the breakdown of how much money from the link and project is actually going to ads and stuff? Because there's a lot of people online that say that you guys are just sucking in the cash.

Unknown Speaker 24:47

Yeah. Well, you'd have to ask the guys only remember, I'm not on the masthead of the Lincoln project. I am raising money for them. And I'm involved in a lot of the TV streaming but I have not taken a salary from the Lincoln Park. I'm not technically an affiliate. So meaning when you file for a packet United States, I'm not one of the name people on the pack, but I am somebody to supporting them in fundraising for them. That breakdown you'd have to get from them. I honestly don't care, whatever they're paying themselves, I think they're totally worth it. They have had the hardest knuckle ads in this election cycle, and they're having an impact on Trump, because I understand the President's personality once you're inside his melon, you can get him to do a lot of things that are mistakes for him and a lot of unforced errors. And I think the Lincoln project has been very successful about that. But because I'm not an officer of the Lincoln project, I don't know the answer of what those percentages are.

Dan Ilic 25:43

I like the idea. There's a boardroom somewhere with a whiteboard with a picture of a melon on it, and how can we get into the melon?

Lewis Hobba 25:50

Like So again, I you

Unknown Speaker 25:51

know, I can tell you, I can tell you an axiom that is totally true, because he lives in a reality distortion field, if you can get on the fox news channel, and you can speak with great truth and great clarity to his base. It sends him into orbit, literally, he's the atomic bomb emoji coming out of somebody's head, and then he'll start coming after you he'll start tweeting about you. I mean, he's still you know, he's still attached to me, he'll the last time he tweeted at me, I was on the fox news channel, explaining the destruction that he's caused to the US economy, to the destruction that he's caused to our healthcare system. Now, he's wait made us weaker, as a country as it relates to our global alliances. And so he went berserk and then started tweeting at me which, you know, listen, I'm totally capable of handling, you know, these these Republican senators. I pray for these guys, because they're very, very weak people. I mean, they're, they're intimidated by somebody that won the vote by 78,000 votes in three states. He's got them believing that he's ronald reagan from 1984. And they don't want to be tweeted at and it's sort of, you know, it's a profile in cowardice, as opposed to what Kennedy was talking about a profile encouraged.

Unknown Speaker 27:03

Mr. Scaramucci, I just have a question for you. Look, I get you're an anti Trump Republican. But arguably, he's getting the republican agenda done. He's about to confirm an anti choice, anti immigrant, anti ACA, Supreme Court Justice, the third in his tenure, what happens if he gets reelected? Ultimately, isn't the Lincoln project just kind of down without agenda? They just don't like who the the front man is. But really, if he gets reelected, you guys are probably going to go along with it because you're getting your way anyway. So where's the moral in that, I guess is what I want to do.

Unknown Speaker 27:41

I I don't see it that way. And I and I know that that's a hardcore liberal. And, you know, forgive me for saying it this way, a little bit of a cynical perspective. I don't see it that way. The the conservative agenda. That's the radical conservative agenda that you just described. That's not my agenda. If you've read stuff that I have written, I worked with the republicans in New York to equalise marriage in the state of New York, and then I work with Rob Reiner, and Chad Gryphon, on the prop eight project to nationalise the marriage equality movement. And so that's a libertarian perspective where somebody that's conservative, and I joke with some of these Danville evangelicals, you guys want a smaller government everywhere, but in my bedroom, you want a larger government in my bedroom. Moreover, the Republican Party under Trump is not classically conservative. It is a socially conservative party, which I disagree with, by the way, because that's anti libertarian ism, is a socially conservative party, but it's a quite fiscally Liberal Party. They want to deficit spend into the stratosphere, and they want to give corporations these gigantic give backs in these gigantic checks. And so for me, that's not classic conservatism. conservatism, for me is to create a platform of equal opportunity for people. I don't believe in socialism, I don't want outcomes capped. But I certainly want people that were born through no fault of their own in inner cities or in poor areas of the country, to have a platform of equal opportunity. So you really study libertarianism and conservatism. There should be a packages of services for people that come from the government, including universal health care, including universal basic income, those things are quite libertarian. If you really understand them, I would encourage you to look at something that Andrew Yang has written about them because, you know, I didn't pick my upbringing. My parents were blue collar, they were on educated, but they hustled and they worked very, very hard to put us in the middle class. And my dad had this aspirational idea about his blue collar life. He thought one of his kids would live the arc of the American dream. If you go back into the area I grew up in. those families have converted from economically aspirational Economically desperation also. So true conservatives would look at that situation and say, Okay, how can we fix that situation? What type of policies, what type of infrastructure, what type of jobs training? Do we need to create a platform of equal opportunity. But once you've got that equal opportunity, then where you go with it is is up to you. It shouldn't be capped on that on the upside. So yes, I hear you. That is a radical view. If the president wins, he will destroy our democracy. And so I don't accept the fact and nor do my friends at the Lincoln project, except the fact that Oh, we're just going to enjoy the fact that he's president and we'd like this Supreme Court that that Supreme Court pick will likely destabilise the social contract that we are in in America right now. And 75% of the people in America do not want Roe v. Wade overturned, they don't want marriage equality overturned. And this is a fringe thing for our society, I think it's very, very dangerous. So I see the republican party as a dinosaur that's about to go extinct. If they reelect President Trump, you will be with an ageing group of people that are buying my pillows and catheters in between foxnews ads, that's what you're going to be left with. I would like

Unknown Speaker 31:17

this are good catheters.

Unknown Speaker 31:21

Next to I left, that the thing you put on your face when you have like sleep apnea, but my point is, I want that party to expand. And I want that party to expand demographically. And I want that party to expand with the beautiful mosaic of colours of the United States. And I want people to think about conservatism differently than the way Trump is describing it. But that is a cynical view of conservatism. And there's a lot of people in that party that hold that view.

Dan Ilic 31:45

And I reject that view, it'd be really interesting to say how you might support universal health care once Biden wins the election, at least carry it.

Unknown Speaker 31:55

What do you mean, I will remember that the vice pres is very smart guy. He's calling for the maintenance of private insurance. And he's calling for the expansion of Obamacare. If you remember, I supported Governor Mitt Romney in 2012. And when he was governor of the state of Massachusetts, he developed something that was called romney care, right, which ultimately evolved into Obamacare. Now, we can disagree with elements of Obamacare. But I'll tell you guys something. The medicine in the United States got socialised in 1986, by Ronald Reagan. And how did that happen? He signed an obscure piece of legislation in 1986. That forced every emergency room doctor in every hospital in the country that if you walked in, and you were sick, and you came into the emergency room, they had a moral and legal obligation to take care of you. And so, you know, we we've had it, we've had this medical nationalisation, if you will, we have to come up with a more propitious way to allocate the capital and make it more efficient. But we've got to get down can't be the last nation, Western industrialised nation that doesn't have that health care.

Unknown Speaker 33:03

So we should I think the answer, if I'm understanding you correctly, is to tax billionaires like 90%, like we did back in the 40s.

Unknown Speaker 33:14

Well, you gotta be careful, I, again, I have no problem paying taxes. But I think you got you have to be careful because my money is not in a swimming pool in my backyard and hundred dollar bills. My money is spread out into a lots of companies that are creating a lot of jobs. And so what happens is, when you tack somebody at 90%, they start to curb their behaviour. And they start to do things like move their money around to avoid those taxes. And so you want to make sure that you're hitting the intersection of the tax code, where you're incentivizing people to do things that are in the bandwidth of the public good. And you're not causing their mobilisation. Look at what's going on in some of these blue states. People are migrating to the, to the red states that have no income tax

Unknown Speaker 33:56

on mostly corporations. But yes,

Unknown Speaker 33:59

listen, you know, my friend, David Tepper, he was 100 and $80 million of the New Jersey tax revenues. One person with his hedge fund. He wanted a tax break from them. They said, No, he moved. And he moved to Miami, he took the hundred and $80 million with the race to the bottom. Yeah, you know, I think I think don't here here's a message I would say to everybody on this podcast, don't get miss a locked into your point of view. Because what ends up happening is when your missile lock, you'll make this very same mistakes that I've made. When you're overly missile locked, you're not seeing it from the other side, you're not seeing the other person's perspective. And that's how we got into the problem that we're in right now. That's why we're so polarised. And that's why we go after each other so far.

Unknown Speaker 34:43

Well, I mean, another reason we're polarised is because we have been living under Neo liberalism since really hardcore since 1980. And so what that has caused is massive inequality that hasn't existed in a developed nation since the French Revolution, which didn't end Great. So It's actually not my political beliefs as much as me having lived under it for now, you know, going on 40 years as being politically aware, and watching a country dissolve, because all the social safety nets have been removed because people don't want to pay taxes, and it's really simple. Everyone should pay their fair share, and billionaires aren't millionaires overnight, and we see what Trump he gets paid $750 in taxes, and everybody else,

Unknown Speaker 35:27

we have to pay tonnes of taxes. Why? Because we don't have because I can't buy a golf course.

Unknown Speaker 35:33

Book. I'm gonna recommend a book on the podcast, if you guys know why it's called American amnesia. And it's a very practical book. It's not necessarily a less base book or right base book. It's not about left or right policy, but it's about right or wrong policy. And it's fairly centrist. And it is making your case by the way, it is making your case that we disavowed the things that got us to where we are, I am the product of a very good public school system. You can't solve the education crisis in the United States without activating public school teachers and working with their unions to enhance the quality of education for these people. You're not going to get there with charter schools, you're not going to get there with conservative jingoism or Betsy DeVos. Okay, but you can get there, we have the right technology, we have the right skill sets, and we have the right capability. And you can convince people that that is actually not necessarily a conservative principle or a liberal principle. But what a great practicality, someone who was a despicable human being Henry Ford, as an example, he was a racist. He was he had a picture of Adolf Hitler on his desk. But he was a pretty magnificent social engineer. He said once and I'll share it with everybody who said, Look, I'm going to pay my workers enough money, so that they can buy the car that they are producing. Moreover, they're going to have a single family house, and they're going to be tied to a very good school system. This way, all these blue collar people will feel aspirational. And they won't come after me in my mansion with tiki torches and pitchforks. And so he

Unknown Speaker 37:08

also had he also actually hired last actually hired men to beat up union members so that he hired he actually hired men to beat up union members. I mean, his his right hand man was one of the most brutal people in the country at the time, and he was a big

Anthony Scaramucci 37:26

I'm giving him credit for an idea. I'm sure that there was mentality in setting up those unions. You know, Roosevelt was against them before he was for them, you will find that everybody has some level of incentives and disincentives, and there is no hero to a man or a woman's valet. You know, if you really study Abraham Lincoln, he was against the abolishment of slavery in the beginning, if you really study him, he wanted to move the African Americans back to Africa. Okay, so he's not a perfect person. Jefferson wasn't Washington obviously wasn't, I certainly am not maybe the four of you are. But here's what I would say to you. Here's what I would say to you. If we go after each other, we go after each other, we're not going to solve the problems. And so there's great ideas on the left. There are some still good ideas on the right, the stuff that princess is suggesting I don't like at all. And so last thing I would say on this topic, Francesca if he wins, he is a threat to the core institutions of our democracy. And so if he wins, you have to look at it from that hierarchy, my patriotism, and my love of country. Is that a way higher order of operation than my partisanship. And so what I find so shocking about this whole thing is as this is unfolded, there are many men and women that have decided that they're clutching a personal power, and they're clutching to the partisanship, nature of this thing is more important than their love of country. So the good news though, is I remain optimistic that there's more people that see it the way we do and want him out than people that see him as somebody that they want to stay with. One last thing before you go, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, his book came out and she said, Wow, wobbu she writes while we're on route to the gemba, a mooch announced I'm proud to report I cross my made a major item off my bucket list today. I assumed he would say something like riding on Air Force One, but instead the mooch said, he just took it taken a huge shift in the White House. Well, I think I remember. I remember using that word, but I think I could have said done. Fred seska. Let me turn it over to you. Do you have any brothers? I

Unknown Speaker 39:40

Yeah, I do. What am I supposed to be the voice of being couth on this? I know. Women you know women take down that. Oh, yeah, women. Here's the thing about women's bundles. Women's bundles are amazing.

Unknown Speaker 39:55

Actually, I was very proud of

Unknown Speaker 39:58

it. And I'm just saying Is your Italian brothers probably would identify with me and have empathy for my feeling of having that on my bucket list since I was age 14. But anyway, let me just put it this way it was the start of a movement, obviously.

Dan Ilic 40:12

It was also the end of a movement as well.

Unknown Speaker 40:17

That experience for me as painful as it was and in often

Unknown Speaker 40:24

it was very enlightening. Not the shit I'm talking about.

Unknown Speaker 40:31

I mean, if we're going to talk about the shift, the shift was fantastic. Okay, I'm still very proud of it. I own it. And if you have follow up questions, I'm ready to take those as well.

Unknown Speaker 40:40

I do Did you did you text someone while you were shitting

Unknown Speaker 40:44

No, no, I don't I definitely don't do that because I'm a little bit of a neat freak that way I don't really use my phone and I'm on the crapper. But God washed my hands and I was heading for the convoy that was heading out to air force one I did text my 28 year old son to let him know of the accomplishment. I think it was very proud of me as his father.

Dan Ilic 41:04

Well, most thanks so much for joining us on irrational fear. Do you have anything to plug before we go?

Unknown Speaker 41:08

Well, no, no, listen, guys, guys, I listen to the to the Reverend podcast and I love it. But read that book. Dave Anthony, I think you'll enjoy it American amnesia. It talks about it talks about the need for the reestablishment of that social contract that you're gonna

Unknown Speaker 41:23

look at a duck money if you read the book.

Unknown Speaker 41:27

Well, I I read dark money. Jane Mayer is a brilliant writer. I think that his her Opus her and I are very close friends. I've helped her on a lot of her stories. And dark money, I think is her Opus. I think that's going to be one of the seminal books of that 40 year period that you're discussing 1980 2020 and that and that book speaks to the need for change and real conservatives don't like crony capitalism, and they don't like all that special interest money corrupting the system and real conservatives. And remember the father of progressivism was Teddy Roosevelt who happened to be a Republican. They break up monopolies real conservatives recognise that monopoly power is actually predatory. It stifles innovation, and it keeps people down and it needs to be broken up and revitalised. And real conservatives actually study that stuff. And they don't just take money from special interest and do what they want, under the cover of conservatism.

Dan Ilic 42:24

Thanks, Mitch, we'll let you go and we'll finish off our show.

Unknown Speaker 42:26

Well, I mean, we had to leave it on the deuce though, right.

Unknown Speaker 42:33

I was going in the right direction. Francesca was starting to like me, then you had to bring up the deuce Jesus Christ.

Unknown Speaker 42:43

Listening to a rational seer was a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck. That was the worst debate I have ever seen. Say it like it is

Dan Ilic 42:56

that was a shit show. Fred and Dave so great to have two big powered brains on with a niche that was

Unknown Speaker 43:05

them bringing the meeting we were being super fair. We had some clips but he was like very like see your you hateful lot like

Unknown Speaker 43:16

he knows his audience right? He knows this centrist audience really just wants to say that thing where they're like you guys are mean and you guys are mean let's meet in the middle. And it's like No, dude, those days are gone. There's no more meeting in the middle with any of these people like but he knows that's what the centrists want to hear that so he's

Unknown Speaker 43:32

getting money for like show me like Lincoln project if you're gonna retake the republican party and actually prove that you aren't pieces of shit show me more than ads like you're talking about the money like do it then do it because I bet you your ass if he if he wins they're gonna go away the Lincoln project will go away they'll just be like well guess what reality is now dupa do like they're gonna fucking

Dan Ilic 43:55

Lincoln project is not too dissimilar to West Wing where it's like it is a it's almost like this shot in Freud or s liberal fantasy that these people exist and people are buying Yes. And it's not quite it's not quite for conservatives but it is for liberals to to think that these people are conservative and they're buying into the shot and Friday. It's comedy gaslighting.

Lewis Hobba 44:14

It's the episode of The West Wing that I don't know if you've got to Dave where they get the the eight the like the republican the sorry, the conservative judge in and they all think he's gonna be the devil. And then they're all like, No, he's actually very smart.

Unknown Speaker 44:29

Yeah. What's your

Unknown Speaker 44:33

what's that podcast called Dave? It's called The West Wing thing. Nice. It's so funny cuz me and him started out we like had a long talk and like we can't upset the writers. We just have to play politics with this as far as writing careers are going and we started like being like, Yeah, he's a good writer, blah, blah. And then like six episodes in we're like, this guy's a misogynist piece of shit.

Unknown Speaker 44:55

turns and we're just like, fuck this guy.

Lewis Hobba 44:58

He was better when he was on cocaine.

Unknown Speaker 45:02

The thing about talking about conservatives and like that I've been living under it my whole life it doesn't exist so glad you have your little Fairyland idea what conservative is but it's never been around in my life so let me know when that kicks in with all of your conservative presidents and your conservative senate I don't know when it kicks in

Unknown Speaker 45:21

idolising Reagan is just like like his entirely you know, we believe in a social safety net like calling black women welfare queens and accusing them of eating steaks every day. Oh yeah, yeah. reaganomics you know.

Unknown Speaker 45:35

We used to have our press secretary come out and laugh at people dying of AIDS ha ha ha conservatism you know I'm Reagan was a fucking monster Reagan was so exact thing Trump was as a little less crass.

Unknown Speaker 45:49

That's exactly right.

Lewis Hobba 45:51

I remember listening to Dave your, your podcasts on Reagan listening to the dollar upon Reagan. And as an Australian, like who don't he's the only real thing of Reagan was like a, you know, comedians doing the imitation or like he used to be an actor or whatever. I was sick. Sick. Yeah, it was the it was nonstop. It was a full like, hour and a half body blow of disgust.

Unknown Speaker 46:17

Yeah, he's, he's a monster and Trump is 100% his heir apparent. And the real problem that we have is that liberals have no memory and don't know how to hold a grudge.

Lewis Hobba 46:31

I believe we call it American Asia. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 46:35

a grudge

Unknown Speaker 46:36

This is what I'm saying that like I was just think about that today. Like the Bush years, eight years, two wars, two plus fours. Like all I we absolutely should have gone after him for war crimes. But like, after eight years of bush after four years of Trump, how much more do you want to think about these people like

Dan Ilic 46:57

you? And the easiest way to erase that is easiest way to erase that is to paint some terrible paintings and go on and talk about let's forget about the war crimes. You've got pesto.

Unknown Speaker 47:11

I mean, you really have to you have to prosecute the bankers, you have to prosecute the george bush's of the world, and you have to suffer through that. Because if you don't, well, you get because now there is no rule of law. And when you say Trump is breaking the law, all those people go What about the fucking bankers? You didn't do anything about? What about the war you didn't do anything about? So you know, what's your argument? Where's your moral sort of ground? I'm

Unknown Speaker 47:35

just saying, I don't want to think about him anymore. But yeah, you're right. You're absolutely right.

Dan Ilic 47:40

Look on that nut. You know, we did had two other stories to get to, but you know, we're already going over time, so why even bother? That's irrational fear. Big thanks to our fear mongers this week. The mooch Francesca fiorentini, Dave Anthony and Louis haba. Do you guys have anything to plug Francesca?

Unknown Speaker 47:57

Follow me on Twitter and Instagram at frannie FeO and watch the Situation Room every Sunday night.

Dan Ilic 48:03

bitchu ation room. It's just like a rational fear. But it's got much better graphics. It's really good. It's excellent. That's that's not hard. And Dave, you want to plug anything,

Unknown Speaker 48:14

my podcast at all by the second podcast, the West Wing thing which I do with Oscar nominated writer Josh Olson, in which we discuss how the West Wing melted all of these brains of people who are liberals and are now in charge of our country, and they don't know what to do because they think that's how politics works.

Dan Ilic 48:36

Are you talking about specifically they attack?

Unknown Speaker 48:39

I would say Pelosi Schumer, I would say Obama's entire ministration was a huge victim of westwing brain. There's a lot that I would say most of the democrats that are in charge,

Unknown Speaker 48:50

saying the podsafe people just mean

Unknown Speaker 48:54

absolutely. podsafe guys are some of the worst in their books actually describe how they, you know, would have parties and talk about which one was Toby which moves Josh? Like they're there. They're all playing. They're doing cosplay for West Wing as opposed to actually governing. And they're getting their asses kicked because of it. And we're all suffering because I saw

Dan Ilic 49:11

a great tweet from Australia and notorious Twitter Dan Dolan, who said, Well, at least the crooked media guys gave Biden five stars for this debate.

That was very erudite from from Daniel Lewis, you got anything to plug buddy?

Lewis Hobba 49:28

No, Dan, same old.

Dan Ilic 49:30

Big thanks to Bertha Foundation, road mics, and our Patreon subscribers and Big thanks to Dave bluestein for writing support on this episode and our producer Jacob brown on the tepanyaki timeline. Until next week, there's always something to be scared of goodbye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai