Flightpath with Alok

Arthur Kushner | Chief Financial Officer and Principal | Jetstream Aviation Capital

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Episode notes

In episode 8 of Flightpath with Alok, Alok travels to Miami to sit with Arthur Kushner, Chief Financial Officer and Principal of Jetstream Aviation Capital, which is the largest global aircraft lessor of commercially operated regional turboprop aircraft, with a fleet of 125 aircraft.  Jetstream is also the largest single owner of Saab 340 and Saab 2000 aircraft and associated spares and engines, worldwide. Arthur is responsible for the day-to-day administration of Jetstream’s financial and commercial operations; his career spans more than forty years, thirty-five of which has been invested in working at a senior and financial management level and for a diverse range of entities including private equity-owned portfolio companies, publicly-traded businesses, banks, consulting and public accounting firms.  Prior to joining Jetstream, Arthur was CEO of Apex Reporting Group a professional services company, part of Sunbelt Diversified Enterprises, LLC, a Coral Gables, Florida-based private equity firm.  Arthur holds a Bachelor of Science degree in Accounting from the University of Florida; he is a certified public accountant and also holds a private pilot license. 

Arthur talks with Alok about how, as a small boy growing up in Miami, his mother was a primary positive influencer in his life; how a high learning work ethic combined with exposure to small aircraft from an early age helped shape him and set him on an aviation trajectory. Arthur speaks about the opportunities and challenges faced in the regional 9 to 70-seat aircraft leasing space and discusses ways to attract young talent to join and grow as part of the team.

If you are wondering whether a career in aviation is for you, and in particular if India will provide you with the opportunities you seek, then this episode is certainly worth a listen.

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Transcript:

Alok: Today I have the pleasure of meeting another esteemed guest in person, Mr. Arthur Kushner, who is the CFO and principal of Jetstream Aviation Capital. Welcoming Mr. Arthur Kushner in his offices in Miami, USA. Arthur, welcome to the show.

Arthur Kushner: Thanks very much, Alok. A pleasure to be invited.

Alok: Thank you. So, it's good to be in your offices, in your beautiful offices, I must say. And getting your valuable time. So let's get straight into this, you know, and start with knowing a little bit about you. First of all, I think my favorite question to start with my podcast is your career journey. If you can tell us a little bit about yourself and your career journey, that will be great to begin with.

Arthur Kushner: You know what, I grew up here in Miami. I studied actually accounting and finance in high school. My mother had an MBA, came from that side of the world, and pursued an accounting degree, started in public accounting. But what really got me then wasn't banking, private equity, a number of different things. But aviation was a key factor early on. My mother, who I just mentioned, actually had a private pilot's license. So my brother and I were exposed to private aviation as little kids. And I got a pilots license in high school probably would have pursued a military career or not for these bad eyes as you can tell from these giant glasses and always had an interest in the industry. So Stuart and I met in the early 90s. Stewart's one of our co-founders and our CEO. And he and I Consulted together the two of us for quite a number of years, predominantly in aviation, and we went off and did different things for a period of time. He was building a medical diagnostic business. I was working in private equity. And that was around the time where he started Jetstream with Conrad Tree and Bill Jones. And I was an early investor in the company and showing somewhat later on after they had already got their first capital commitments in 2010.

Alok: Right, right, right. So that's how you then came on board and now you are in this role in the business. That's great. So I would like to just do a little back and forth on your career journey as such, given whatever little I am aware of. You have already mentioned about the private pilot's license, which is great. That means you have a direct first hand, I would say aviation angle involved in your career.

Arthur Kushner: And that helps. Yeah definitely.

Alok: I do recall at one point of time you mentioned to be your exposure into the software side and your interest in software. That intrigued me when we were initially, when we met initially. I'd like to know a little bit more about that.

Arthur Kushner: Sure. One of the consulting opportunities Stuart and I dealt with was the estate of Eastern Airlines. So Eastern Airlines was a major US carrier. They had gone through Chapter 11 and then unfortunately a dissolution starting in like 1989. But the state had a number of assets and the state continued operating and one of those major assets was a software application that was fairly sophisticated at the time. But what was written in COBOL, was millions of lines of code. It was single input, multi-module interactive and you know when you think about that time frame it was fairly advanced and it was more advanced than any other airline had at the time. So the gentleman who was running the estate, who was trying to monetize what assets remain, this is after all the aircraft and engines and the core aviation assets, routes had been sold off. And then what's left are some intangibles and software and the like. So the objective was to try to market that software to other airlines. So Stuart was working on the marketing side. I was working on the capital raising side. And actually Delta Airlines did a test of the system. One of the challenges though we had was even though the software was extremely sophisticated, because it's a key operational application, trying to get comfort from the potential customers was a challenge. You're this bankrupt airline, and you want us to give you all of our key operations for the software, how do we know if you're gonna be there tomorrow? So that was sort of the first professional exposure to software.

Alok: You know the reason I also mentioned it is because at one point you and I were discussing software and I realized in our initial conversations that you had a immediate understanding of certain modalities about the software tool and the requirements and I remember that this is why it was it was refreshing for me that customer who is aviation leasing is also having an understanding of this piece because then it makes my life easier when I'm talking to a customer.

Arthur Kushner: I don't know if it's good or bad. My significant other tells me I think like a computer. So maybe that's not the best for interpersonal relationships, but it helps for this case.

Alok: Yes, it depends on which context you are thinking like a computer. Interesting. So moving on, let's talk a little bit about also Jetstream, Jetstream Aviation Capital. I think it's a very interesting business from where I look at it, not least because you have been I think heavily focused on SAAB Airplanes. And I have to admit that before I met Jetstream Aviation Capital, I had never dealt with this airplane type, though I had heard about it obviously, but I didn't even imagine that these airplanes are being leased so frequently. So, you know, it would be great to get a primer from you on, first of all, the airplane as such, why you invested in these airplanes. Secondly, then finally, what is the business model for you, Jetstream as such?

Arthur Kushner: You know we operate very similarly to any other lessor or even the large public companies. The opportunity that Stuart identified in this space was there wasn't anybody with institutional capital operating in a very professionalized manner in a 9 to 50 seat aircraft. So that was the opportunity he identified. And 34-seat aircraft were sort of key in that realm. And at the time, or still, the key aircraft in that 34-seat space were Embraer, EMB 120 and Saab 340. And Embraer had ceased supporting the EMB 120. So there were some issues there about longevity. And Saab, even though they had ceased production in I think 95, they continued to support at that time and until today, continue to have a robust engineering and part support program. So we started to acquire different portfolios of Saab aircraft on lease and initially started with sale lease-back opportunities. And you know initially, we had various types of aircraft in that realm from Cessna caravans that were still current production, Viking 400 Twin Otter, current production, but majority of what we had was out of production. We had some Fokker F-27s. We had an assortium of different type of aircraft in that space. But continued to build and build Saab portfolio. We're the largest owner-lessor of Saab aircraft in the world. So we have Saab 340A freighter, B passenger, B freighter. There's a B plus model. And beyond the 340, we moved into the SAAB 2000 space, which is a fantastic airplane. It's a 50-seat twin triple craft, very high speed, almost jet speed. And that was developed in the early 90s, right as the regional jet evolution was taking place. It's unfortunate they only built 63 aircraft due to the competitive pressures from the regional jet market. But the aircraft still is a very attractive platform.

Alok: Yeah, and I mean one of the things which I'm curious about, why SAAB, why did you choose this aeroplane model? I mean when we see at the leasing spectrum all across, I'm sure it's a great aircraft as such. But it does stand out, right, that you're a dominant lessor in that space and you're one of the maybe very few lessrs, I'm not aware of anyone else, but I'm sure there are others who are doing the SAAB airplane leasing too, a few of them.

Arthur Kushner: Yeah there are a few mainly smaller players.

Alok: Right, right, right. What attracted you like if I may ask?

Arthur Kushner: It had to do with the market where there were a number of small operators here and around the world that you know oftentimes are you know a fleet of 15 aircraft or less that were operating those aircraft. And based on what we talked about earlier with the continued support of SAAB, there was particular opportunity there. In fact, our first customer was just located here in Miami, Miami International. You can see it from here. So, it was an easy opportunity. In fact, SAAB had their own leasing portfolio and some of the initial aircraft we purchased came from the Saab leasing portfolio. And some of the initial aircraft we purchased came from the Saab leasing portfolio proper. And we said that, hey, we operate like a very large lessor. Some of the other parties in our space were very small, sort of mom-and-pop lessors. And then there were some others that were of more substance, like Elex and Falco, and then NAC, Nordic Aviation Capital, was the big player with hundreds of aircraft and Ford production slots with ATR and the like. So we've recently made our first acquisitions of ATR aircraft, ATR 72 600s. And that puts you into, it's a bit of a different customer base, some of our existing SAAB customers are migrating into ATR. But there's also plenty of other customers that operate mainline jets, and they have ATR on the bottom of their aircraft stack, and others where it's at the top. And the same thing on the leasing side, where for us the 70-seat airplane is at the top of our portfolio and there's other lessors where they have mainline jets and ATRs at the bottom. So there's some interesting crossovers.

Alok: Yeah, it is definitely because you know because one of the challenges I see like where I come from in India right now where the avaiton market is moving as everyone knows there's a big order book but one of the challenges which is happening is that there's a lot of so India government has a regional connectivity scheme. I think US has a similar scheme for regional connectivity.

Arthur Kushner: Yes, EAS, essential air service.

Alok: Yeah, so India something similar is there so is it other parts of Europe? But those operators who benefit from this scheme, they look for airplanes of exactly this type. And one of the challenges which we are seeing in Indian market at least as of now, is there is no one available to finance or lease them. So it's very interesting for me to know that someone over here has done that. And obviously, you're a global lessor. So it's a great proof of the fact that this can be done successfully and such operators with smaller feed bases can also be well supported. That's why it is very interesting in terms of, and so you have moved on to ATR 70, in the sense, maybe moved on is the wrong word. But you have just added ATR 72 600s and so far how has been your experience? I am not asking you to rate the two airplanes against each other, but if I have to talk about key differences, how will you rate that, as a lessor.

Arthur Kushner: You know what? Yeah, it’s, one there is a learning curve technically, with regard to the aircraft, which our technical folks have undergone. We had a good opportunity to acquire the aircraft we acquired, but they were on the ground. So we have to go through some extensive make-ready processes as opposed to stepping into a sale-leaseback situation where the aircraft are on a lease and there's no transition and there's no capex required in a make-ready process to get the airplanes ready. So it's been a heavy lift, but we're doing well. We're working with initially some existing customers that I alluded to earlier that are either already operating or transitioning into the ATR aircraft. And then it's sort of dealing with a different manufacturer. So for the most part, you know, we have a very close relationship with SAAB. One of our colleagues is Swedish, based in Sweden, you know, interacts with SAAB headquarters daily. And we've had a very collaborative effort in relationship with SAAB. So it's a new relationship with ATR and developing those relationships, learning the people, learning how the company operates, so on and so forth.

Alok: Have you got a French colleague yet?

Arthur Kushner: Not yet. I'm sure that'll come. All right. Or Italian. I'll get the Italian.

Alok: Right, right, our Italians, yes, you're right. So, let's talk about your role, what you do now. So as a principal at CFO, you are at Jet Stream Aviation Capital, Global Aircraft Lessor. Maybe tell me a little bit about your role, how your role has evolved, and what your role entails now.

Arthur Kushner: Initially, I think I was the fourth employee. You know, starting from scratch and building the organization, it's all the typical roles and responsibilities of the CFO position in any company, and it's just adapting to what the particular industry requirements, nuances are. In our case, one of the challenges we had is what brings us to talk about Acumen and Acumen Sparta software. There was not an enterprise software that was a fit for us. And Acumen is the first one that is proving successful in implementation. We had a couple of failed attempts of implementing an aviation leasing industry-specific application. And without that, you're doing a lot of disparate processes and analyses and it certainly helps to be able to tie it all together. So that's one of the things that we've been working on now as the company's grown. And there's been various times in the evolution of the company where there's time to take a breath in the portfolio has a static number of airplanes for a period of time. You can work on various improvements and implementations. And then there's times where you've raised new capital, you’re acquiring aircraft very rapidly and you know you're working at quite a pace and I just you know work to keep your head above water.

Alok: As a CFO, if my understanding is correct and it's very limited obviously in this space is compliance is a big part of the job of a CFO right? So however as an aircraft lessor, the lessor community is subject to additional compliances, being the nature of the global business, aircraft trading, et cetera. How do you see, if you really care to give me a little perspective on, as a CFO role- do you see your role being different than what a typical CFO will be doing in any other company? Like, in your particular role, are you involved in just compliance, financial control, or is it more to do also as a principal also I believe you also multitask as a deal maker at times, right?

Arthur Kushner: At times. There was a period of time when I was working on the commercial side more actively and some little niche opportunities having to do with certain engine types like one of our co-founders, partners, Conrad Tree, is in charge of capital markets and investor relations. So when we talk about, hey, what are the different disciplines, and how does it vary from other lessors? Obviously, if it's a large entity and a public entity, they're dealing with the public markets and regulatory requirements from the financial side. In our case, we're not public. We're sizeable, but not to the size where we have public debt or anything along those lines. So, we're subject to audit, but our compliance requirements are a bit different than you would find in some of the large public operators out there.

Alok: Right. Something I should have asked earlier, if you may, if you don't care to share with me your total current fleet size.

Arthur Kushner: We're about 120 to 125 aircraft currently and another 40 engines and an engine portfolio.

Alok: Right. And this includes the ATRs, SAABs, everything everything just currently there.

Arthur Kushner: That's everything, yeah.

Alok: Okay, that's interesting. On the overall business side, when it comes to leasing airplanes and I am soon going to go into a certain geographic region which I was very intrigued about when you mentioned to me a while back but before I do that you know, maybe tell me a little bit about overall your experience in making deals in terms of sales. I am just curious to know if I can ask this from a business model perspective. Do you do only operating leases, finance leases, sale-leasebacks? How does this work in your business?

Arthur Kushner: Sure. The majority of the transactions are dry operating leases. Five-year average term. It may be contrasting with mainline aircraft brand new, where it might be a 10 or 12-year head lease. So, for the most part, we're dealing with non-new aircraft and five-year dry operating leases. We have done quite a number of sale-leasebacks in our earlier development of the company, which I find quite attractive. We touched on those a little bit earlier about all the benefits of not having any transition costs. With moving to the ATR space there will probably be more opportunity to do that as well.

Alok: That's very interesting by the way, that you are saying there's no transition cost involved when it comes to talking about SAAB airplanes, right?

Arthur Kushner: Any type of airplane, I'm just talking about in a sale-leaseback scenario.

Alok: Right, but when you take the airplane back, at the end of the lease term, there is some...

Arthur Kushner: Oh yes, yeah, I'm just talking about initially, compared to leasing in an aircraft. We have to go to the market, we have to acquire an airplane, and then address its delivery conditions with a new operator, potentially have to do various maintenance. So there's a time and a financial cost to that, as opposed to a sale-leaseback, where on day one, when you consummate the transaction, you're earning rent without any capital cost involved, for the most part.

Alok: Right, right. And yeah, that's where you're talking about how you're now dealing with the ATRs portfolio which you acquired, which are coming with a certain maintenance requirements in advance.

Arthur Kushner: Right. And I'm sure there'll be sale-leaseback opportunities in that space as well. It just so happens there was an opportunity with the initial portfolio of ATRs where they were on the ground. And that creates the opportunity as well.

Alok: Great and which geographies you see particularly active for your business currently?

Arthur Kushner: Probably majority North America, US, and Canada. We have customers in Europe, we've had customers in Asia, in Central America, Australia, still currently. So global, although a concentration here, and obviously there are challenges with greater distance. And just like any other lessor, rule of law, jurisdiction, historical precedent with regard to reorganizations and accessing having access to your aircraft. We're all you know big considerations when it comes to picking a geography. And obviously now with what's going on in Ukraine, insurers are particularly focused on geography.

Alok: Yeah, true, true. That is true. Geographies, you have mentioned to me a while back Pakistan. I was very intrigued, not the least because Pakistan is a neighbor to India, yes, of course. And purely from a business perspective, how has been your experience there? Have you managed to lease anything there yet?

Arthur Kushner: We have not. We had a visit, we had some initial discussions with PIA actually. But yeah, I was very impressed. You always have an impression of a country never having been there. And in my travels, I'm often pleasantly surprised where it exceeds expectations. So I can say that about Pakistan. You know, everybody we dealt with was very professional, knowledgeable. You know, when you're talking aviation, you speak the common language of aviation. Yeah, so it was a positive experience overall. You know, that being a government-supported airline, the positives are that they had not really had, as far as I know, any defaults historically, but they were going through a lot of transition at that airline, and now the country's looking to privatize and they're having significant financial issues on a global basis. So it's probably best that we did not proceed in that case.

Alok: Right. And in Asia, you mentioned that you have a few assets there, but are you looking at other jurisdictions like maybe China, India, or other bigger jurisdictions there to do this?

Arthur Kushner: We've not looked at China. We've looked at various places in Asia. India is always something of interest. One of my colleagues who came from the large jet world had a poor experience in India. So that's sort of...

Alok: You were talking about Wayne, yeah?

Arthur Kushner: It was Wayne and Kingfisher. Yeah. So that sort of has an impact. It always comes up. So, but you know, you being there on the ground, speaking highly about the government support, you know, it's encouraging. So I'm sure we'll continue to look at opportunities around the globe.

Alok: Because you know particularly as I was saying Indian market is now prime for this airplane type particularly because of the regional connectivity scheme and the operators there are looking for help there. Anybody who can come in with the leasing support to them provide them assets and attractive rates. Definitely, I think there is a market opportunity but I understand you have to assess your own requirements first. And now as a business, my understanding is while you have colleagues spread around the world, you mentioned you have a Swedish colleague managing your relationship with SAAB, but I think JetStream is primarily or the corporate office is focused only in Miami.

Arthur Kushner: We have corporate office in Miami, we have some team members that are in other states. So we have one person in North Carolina, one person in Tennessee. And then we have some folks in finance team that are in Fort Myers and Orlando that started during COVID. We had not had a lot of team members that didn't reside here in Miami and didn't meet in the office in person. So we've gone through that COVID experience where, for the most part, we've been out of the office since COVID started. And there's this big debate about to go back to the office or not to go back to the office. Overall, I think most companies, at least here in the States, are split. And we made hires out of town during COVID. And for my impression, it's worked well.

Alok: So, on a business perspective overall, the way the business has shaped for Jetstream and the operating model, the business model you’ve explained to me, what do you feel if you can say your role as a principal of the business, what do you see ahead if at all, any major challenges?

Arthur Kushner: In general, when you just look at the trajectory and growth of commercial aviation, it's very positive with regard to projected growth, and number of industry groups like ISTAT and others have quite a bit of analysis on that. In the short term, there's always ups and downs and it varies in sectors. During COVID, obviously, cargo did fantastic and now there's a bit of a, I'm trying to think of the right analogy to say, hey, after that sort of boom in cargo activity, now things are coming down and that's causing some stress in the industry. You know, I didn't mention that we have maybe a 60-40 split between passenger and cargo operators and it's a good balance. Manpower is tough, I think, across all spaces. We know about pilot shortages. Now there's quite a bit of a manpower shortage on the maintenance and engineering side. So those are constraints that have been growing for a while and then COVID brought about all these supply chain issues. And that is a major challenge where, you know, dealing with the OEMs and their subcontractors, everybody's backed up with delays in delivering material. 

Alok: So supply chain issues are also there because of that.

Arthur Kushner: It seems that there's demand in the various inputs whether it be labor material or having a little bit of trouble keeping up and that applies to other areas of the economy as well.

Alok: Right. And you mentioned there's a 60-40 split between passenger and cargo. Did you also see a spike in your cargo fleet demand during the COVID times? And did you see, like what I'm hearing is now that seems to have cooled down a lot now? Is that the case for you also?

Arthur Kushner: Yeah, we're seeing that a bit. Our operators aren't having any significant issues because there was no real overextension. I think the people that have problems were all these aircraft that came out of storage in the desert to go back into service where those fleets were inflated where we haven't had that experience most part with our customers.

Alok: Okay, now that we have spoken about the challenges let's talk about something a little more positive. What will you say Arthur is the biggest strength or what is the USP of Jetstream? 

Arthur Kushner: Yeah I would say size, nimbleness, and then just the type of customer relationships we have. So we earlier talked about large lessors, new production airplanes, the aircraft goes out on the 10 or 12-year head lease with a big airline, and the staffs are interacting. But for the most part, there's not much, there's not tremendous amount of interactivity at the higher executive level in those types of scenarios. In our case, particularly Stewart has direct relationships with all the CEOs and all of our customers. It's very interactive and collaborative and I see that as one of the major differences that also gives us a lot of flexibility.

Alok: So it's like maintaining bespoke relationships or kind of a boutique feel of a business relationship with customers.

Arthur Kushner: Absolutely. So I think those relationships are key to developing that kind of trust. So Stuart has great interpersonal skills on that front and you know we see it during tough times where you can work with your counterparties very well. We did that during Covid. Now, one thing I did not mention that's also different about Jetstream structurally is we don't have any debt on our balance sheet. So we're in a position where all of our aircraft are bought with equity. Some of that had to do with the average value of the aircraft before getting into the ATRs. The ATR scenario might be a little bit different just based on the relative values and benefit of leverage with those types of lease rates. But when it came to COVID and the ability to enter into forbearance agreements with our customers to help us collectively get through that crisis, we didn't have lenders sitting at the table being involved in that discussion or having requirements for their terms for those types of accommodations.

Alok: That's a huge advantage.

Arthur Kushner: Yes, that was a huge advantage.

Alok: That gives you flexibility to agree to your own terms which suits your customer and you without the pressure of the lenders' requirements. So that basically, okay that's a very unique point which stands out I must say. And okay now you know looking at the JetStream business, career you have had, illustrious career I think more than 35 years in the industry now right? If I may ask like you know from a people perspective you did mention one of the challenges you're seeing is people challenges. And I'm assuming that same for across-the-board retaining people and finding good people. And Jetstream, it seems, has been fairly successful in attracting young talent and retaining them. What do you feel has helped in being able to do that successfully? Maybe give me an example or two of that.

Arthur Kushner: Yeah, first of all, we're a small company, so it makes it easier. We don't have large requirements. But in the United States, we have a 3.5%, 3.4% unemployment rate. So there's competition for talent across industries. One of my colleagues went to a professional development course at ISTAT, the industry that we had and that feedback was interesting because he's dealing with his peers in that training course who are from airlines, from other lessors, and you get some insight into how competitive it is to attract talent. We brought on a couple of folks right out of college this year. One on the finance side, one on the portfolio side. And there's a lot of opportunity in the industry. So I certainly encourage folks that are trying to decide on a career path or change a career path at the aviation space, whether it's on the airline side or whether it's on the lease finance side, there's a lot of opportunity there.

Alok: Okay. So from a business side, you're saying Jetstream is focusing on career development for their younger executives to allow them to grow their careers. And that is one of the strategies possibly you're using to retain staff for long term, isn't it? Yeah. Is that correct? The way I've paraphrased.

Arthur Kushner: Yeah. And obviously, there's benefits of the company where you're enhancing those team members' skill sets. And they get the benefit of that ad infinitum, you know through their career in the future whether it's with us or somebody else so it's a win-win.

Alok: I can't help but think of the famous I don't know whether to call it a joke or a the famous meme I think. Since you are the CFO you know that what the famous CFO-CEO conversation?

Arthur Kushner: Let me hear.

Alok: Where the CFO is asking the CEO that why should we spend all this money training these people they're just going to leave it leave us one day and the CEO says, “What if we don't train them and they stay?”

Arthur Kushner: Exactly.

Alok: But you seem to have bridged that gap already.

Arthur Kushner: Yeah, those synapses connected. That was not a problem. Yeah.

Alok: That would not have been difficult for your CEO to convince you to spend money on. That's good actually. That's good because as a company we also believe in training and spending a lot of effort and investment into training people and putting them through like an in-house academy where we can enhance their skills all the time.

Arthur Kushner: Absolutely. Let's make that. And I'm sure people, younger people now are aware of that it's not just the cash compensation you get, it's what's happening from a career development standpoint. What are you learning? What skills are you going to get? How do you see different aspects of the business by moving to different disciplines or silos within the organization and so forth?

Alok: Right. So, someone who is given this wide spectrum of career journey, the business, the unique positioning of Jetstream and you know let us say someone is getting in this industry now. What is one career advice you feel has served maybe you well and what you feel will serve someone well looking to grow their career?

Arthur Kushner: I don't know if the question is for folks that are already in the aviation space or not. My career advice to any young person is whatever you think you want your career path to be, before you have a full commitment to it, educationally or whatever, you need to go and get practical exposure to it, however, you do that. If it's a summer job, if it's working for free, if it's, you know, arm-twisting somebody to have you shadow them for a couple of weeks in their position. But, you know, I went through that myself a bit where I was an accounting major. And for the most part, with an accounting major, you go to public accounting, you go to industry, but I had never worked in that environment before. And I can tell you, there was a bit of an awakening from studying a subject in school and maybe doing very well at it, to here's the day-to-day life of what that career is. And it's better to understand that ahead of time than after the fact. There's plenty of people they go through college and they don't like what they study for and they change their career and they go back to school or pivot or whatever. You're saying take advantage in advance and think ahead.

Alok: So get practical exposure is what you're saying. That is yeah that I think that is a good advice because one of the things obviously that goes hand in hand with hard work and putting the initiative and learning the bit but I think that is great advice because many times people who started to a career journey or a line of study are not maybe having a full clarity of what they're getting into without getting a first-hand exposure.

Arthur Kushner: Yeah, they're studying academically, but they don't know what the lifestyle is or what their job is. That's across I think any career path or industry. And that's about trying to match up your aspirations and interests with what the reality of that career path is. Unless it's, hey, I know what it is, and I'm going to work in that environment because I'm building the skill set. I don't intend to do it beyond, you know, 2-3 years and I have that feather in my cap and that knowledge, and I move on to what I really want to do. So it's just forethought planning and sometimes, you know, when you're young in college and a little bit wide-eyed, it's hard to have that foresight.

Alok: Right, right, right. That's very good advice I would say. Thank you and any message, we are reaching the very end of this recording but any message you have for our audience who will be listening to this, anything you want to say to the industry or you know even more so for the young executives who I'm sure will be watching and listening to this podcast with interest.

Arthur Kushner: That's a tough one I haven't prepared for. Other than I thought I just gave that advice in my, you know.

Alok: That was a good career advice. But if you want to give any message to the podcast audience, Justin.

Arthur Kushner: With my COVID gray hair here and my advancing years, I think it's just, look we all work in stressful environments, sometimes you get a little bit of tunnel vision and just try to keep things in perspective. And, you know, manage your mental health and stress and you'll be better off.

Alok: That’s something different and unique and I think it's a good advice, Arthur. Thank you very much.

Arthur Kushner: Appreciate it. Thanks for the time.

Alok: You're most welcome.